Kosonen I noticed that you said the UN has a prayer room (though the article which you linked to says it is 'The Meditation Room, sometimes called “A Room of Quiet” ' instead of calling it a prayer room). I don't find that surprising since many years after I graduated from my university I noticed in a visit to my university that it now has a prayer-meditation room for the students. It even includes a Bible and a Koran in the room. However I was initially surprised when I discovered that my university now has prayer-meditation room for the students.
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
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30
What really is UN doing with religions?
by Kosonen inoccult un forces seek to hijack religion for globalism.
https://thenewamerican.com/occult-un-forces-seek-to-hijack-religion-for-globalism/it does not look like religions dominate un but the other way around.
journalist alex newman gives a totally different picture about the real state of affairs.
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Who raised Jesus from the dead?
by Blotty ini have seen arguments surrounding jesus' resurrection being proof of "the trinity" - now while in some cases it's a good argument the evidence for it remains very weak.
(bible quotes are from the nwt but other bibles are referenced, use whichever you please) this following version of it is a good example.. "the bible indicates that all [persons] of the trinity was involved in jesus’ resurrection.
galatians[1:1] says that the father raised jesus from the dead.
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Disillusioned JW
Correction: I had some typos in my prior post where I said the following. "One page 5 of this topic thread Sea Breeze mentions a case which regarding a purported Out of Body Experience (OBE) which I had learned of years ago (why I was researching the possibility of OBE and ESP, despite me already being an atheistic naturalist at the time). I learned back in discussions from an atheistic friend of my (who is medical doctor and ex-Christian) that a naturalist explanation was discovered. (see below in the quote of the Wikipedia article)." I meant to say the following. "One page 5 of this topic thread Sea Breeze mentions a case regarding a purported Out of Body Experience (OBE) which I had learned of years ago (while I was researching the possibility of OBE and ESP, despite me already being an atheistic naturalist at the time). I learned back then in discussions from an atheistic friend of mine (who is medical doctor and ex-Christian) that a naturalist explanation was discovered. (see below in the quote of the Wikipedia article)."
Further information: In my prior post quoted a Wikipedia article which included a quote of Terence Hines. The Wikipedia about Terence Hines located at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terence_Hines says the following.
"A fellow of the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry, Hines is the author of Pseudoscience and the Paranormal which focuses on the fields of pseudoscience and the paranormal in the United States.
... In his book, Hines argues that pseudoscience tends not to be updated in the face of newly obtained evidence, and he highlights the difficulty in clearly demarcating pseudoscience from the paranormal.[5]: 242 He also postulates that if paranormal abilities such as clairvoyance or precognition were possible, then surely one would expect casino and lottery incomes to be affected, although no such effect is observed.[6]: 635 "
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Who raised Jesus from the dead?
by Blotty ini have seen arguments surrounding jesus' resurrection being proof of "the trinity" - now while in some cases it's a good argument the evidence for it remains very weak.
(bible quotes are from the nwt but other bibles are referenced, use whichever you please) this following version of it is a good example.. "the bible indicates that all [persons] of the trinity was involved in jesus’ resurrection.
galatians[1:1] says that the father raised jesus from the dead.
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Disillusioned JW
Sea Breeze, you haven't provided any documentation in support of your claim of "Cases of verified brain dead patients acting and speaking completely normally shortly before death". What you even mean of "brain dead ... shortly before death"? Do you mean they became brain dead, later their brains became alive again, and even later the patients the became fully dead? If so, where is your documentation for such. I have read from scientific sources that no one who was truly brain dead ever came back to life and that no one who was truly brain dead ever regained consciousness and/or speaking ability. Where is your evidence? Does it merely consist of anecdotal reports of unverifiable claims, instead of scientifically documented evidence?
Sea Breeze and other readers, note what the medical science says about those who are truly brain dead.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/articles/the-challenges-of-defining-and-diagnosing-brain-death says the following.
"The panel was moderated by anesthesiologist and critical care specialist Robert Stevens, who says the line between life and death, once clearly perceptible in the form of a beating heart, is now sometimes harder to see because of advances in lifesaving technologies.
The modern intensive care unit can keep a person with severe brain injuries alive, he says, but may also mask evidence that the person has died. The shift from a deep coma to brain death—permanent cessation of all brain function—may not be immediately obvious to an untrained observer. Yet recognizing this transition from life to death is critical for families, the medical team and potential organ recipients.
When a patient dies, doctors stop treatment and instead focus on organ viability. The body is kept on life-support machinery if the patient was a registered organ donor or while the family makes decisions about organ donation.
... The consultant performs a full neurological examination to determine if there are any signs of brain or brainstem function. This includes assessing the drive to take a breath, determining whether pupils react to light, and swabbing the back of the throat to elicit a gag reflex. The neurological examination must be repeated at least once after a minimum interval of six hours, to ensure that brain function is not temporarily suppressed by factors such as high doses of narcotics or intense cold.
... Defining the Terms
Brain death is often confused with other conditions that seem similar, such as coma and vegetative state.
Brain death: Irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem. A person who is brain dead is dead, with no chance of revival."
Notice that the article said it is very hard to determine when a person is truly brain dead. The article even says brain function is sometimes "temporarily suppressed by factors such as high doses of narcotics or intense cold". It also says "Brain death: Irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem. A person who is brain dead is dead, with no chance of revival."
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/brain-death/ says the following.
"Brain death (also known as brain stem death) is when a person on an artificial life support machine no longer has any brain functions. This means they will not regain consciousness or be able to breathe without support.
A person who is brain dead is legally confirmed as dead. They have no chance of recovery because their body is unable to survive without artificial life support.
Brain death is legal death
If someone is brain dead, the damage is irreversible and, according to UK law, the person has died.
It can be confusing to be told someone has brain death, because their life support machine will keep their heart beating and their chest will still rise and fall with every breath from the ventilator.
But they will not ever regain consciousness or start breathing on their own again. They have already died.
... After brain death, it is not possible for someone to remain conscious.
... Tests to confirm brain death
Although rare, a few things can make it appear as though someone is brain dead.
These include drug overdoses (particularly from barbiturates) and severe hypothermia.
A number of tests are carried out to check for brain death, such as shining a torch into both eyes to see if they react to the light.
Find out more about diagnosing brain death "
The boldface in that quote of the nhs.uk is their boldface, I did not add that boldface. But the underlining was added by me, for emphasis.
The above quotes of two medical science sources (of highly trusted organizations for medical science information) totally refute and disprove Sea Breeze's unsubstantiated claim of "3. Cases of verified brain dead patients acting and speaking completely normally shortly before death"!
The above two medical science sources thus prove what I said above, namely the following. "I have read from scientific sources that no one who was truly brain dead ever came back to life and that no one who was truly brain dead ever regained consciousness and/or speaking ability."
Readers, Sea Breeze has no proof that truly brain dead people have ever returned to life. He also has no proof that truly brain dead people have regained consciousness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-body_experience under the subheading of "Psychological" within the heading of "OBE theories" says the following.'In the fields of cognitive science and psychology OBEs are considered dissociative experiences arising from different psychological and neurological factors.[5][8][9][10][12][13][14] Scientists consider the OBE to be an experience from a mental state, like a dream or an altered state of consciousness without recourse to the paranormal.[40]
... Terence Hines (2003) has written that spontaneous out-of-body experiences can be generated by artificial stimulation of the brain and this strongly suggests that the OBE experience is caused from "temporary, minor brain malfunctions, not by the person's spirit (or whatever) actually leaving the body."[70]
... Richard Wiseman (2011) has noted that OBE research has focused on finding a psychological explanation and "out-of-body experiences are not paranormal and do not provide evidence for the soul. Instead, they reveal something far more remarkable about the everyday workings of your brain and body."[74] '
One page 5 of this topic thread Sea Breeze mentions a case which regarding a purported Out of Body Experience (OBE) which I had learned of years ago (why I was researching the possibility of OBE and ESP, despite me already being an atheistic naturalist at the time). I learned back in discussions from an atheistic friend of my (who is medical doctor and ex-Christian) that a naturalist explanation was discovered. (see below in the quote of the wikipedia article). [I am referring to the following claim my by Sea Breeze.
"Here is just one example out of thousands: A person clinically dies on the operating table and their consciousness leaves their body. She sees various doctors, sees where they put things and even drifts outside the hospital above the roof and sees a particualr kind of tennis show on the roof.
Later upon reviving, she relates these details and even describes the color of shoe on the roof. When checked out, all the details she relates while out of her body are found to be accurate."]The naturalistic explanation to the claim made by Sea Breeze is found under the subheading of "Paranormal" in the heading of "OBE theories" the above mention article located at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-body_experience . It says the following.
'In April 1977, a patient from Harborview Medical Center known as Maria claimed to have experienced an out-of-body experience. During her OBE she claimed to have floated outside her body and outside the hospital. Maria later told her social worker Kimberly Clark that during the OBE she had observed a tennis shoe on the third floor window ledge to the north side of the building. Clark then went to the north wing of the building and by looking out of the window could see a tennis shoe on one of the ledges. Clark published the account in 1984. The story has since been used in many paranormal books as evidence that a spirit can leave the body.[92][93]
In 1996, Hayden Ebbern, Sean Mulligan and Barry Beyerstein visited the Medical Center to investigate Clark's story. They placed a tennis shoe on the same ledge and found that it was visible from within the building and could easily have been observed by a patient lying in bed. They also discovered that the tennis shoe was easy to observe from outside the building and suggested that Maria may have overheard a comment about it during her three days in the hospital and then incorporated it into her OBE. They concluded "Maria's story merely reveals the naiveté and the power of wishful thinking" from OBE researchers seeking a paranormal explanation.[94] Clark did not publish the description of the case until seven years after it happened, casting doubt on the story. Richard Wiseman has said that although the story is not evidence for anything paranormal it has been "endlessly repeated by writers who either couldn't be bothered to check the facts, or were unwilling to present their readers with the more skeptical side of the story."[93] Clark responded to the accusations made in a separate paper.[95] '
On page 7 of this topic thread Sea Breeze said (to Jeffro) the following. "Isn't it true that materialism & naturalism have some pretty tight mental rules that adherents must follow as well in order to stay within the atheist fold so to speak?" I answer "No" to that question. Above I cited my on experience of exploring the concept of OBEs and of ESP despite me being an atheistic naturalist at the time (and I continued to be such). Being an atheistic naturalist does not prohibit one from exploring claims of ESP, the paranormal, and the supernatural, nor exploring possible supernatural explanations. I explore a range of phenomena and a ranged of alleged (but unproved) phenomena.From time to time I explore the possibility of the supernatural, despite being a naturalist. Such an approach is not a contradiction, but rather is consistent with a scientific approach of testing ideas, including of prevailing scientific theories and of one's core current beliefs and convictions. That is because scientists and other others using scientific minded approach often question prevailing scientific ideas and explore to see if they have weaknesses. People who adhere to a scientific mindset (including some those with an atheistic naturalist mindset, including myself) often keep their mind open enough (or occasionally open it enough) to question their belief, especially when they encounter new information which challenges their beliefs.
Within the scientific community scientists disagree with their peers on some matters, and they challenge and test the scientific claims of their peers to see if they have flaws. Some scientists even do scientific experiments pertaining to ESP, the paranormal and the supernatural (such as the possible effect of intercessory prayer in hospitals for healing of patients) to see if perhaps they have any validity, and they have published the results in leading peer reviewed scientific journals.
But those who are atheistic naturalists are more likely to find a naturalistic explanation than those who want to believe in supernaturalistic explanation. That is because those who are atheistic naturalists are more motivated to find a naturalistic explanation. Furthermore, on average the atheistic naturalists (at least in my opinion) are probably more rational than on average the theistic supernaturalists.
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Why Not Celebrate Christmas?
by Mum inso, jw's don't celebrate christmas or other holidays.
as bill cetnar once said, there are two reasons for everything: the reason they tell you, and the real reason.
they will tell you it's because christmas is "pagan" and can lead to all sorts of licentious conduct (like drinking too much macallan scotch?)..
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Disillusioned JW
WingCommander, I quickly read some of the context a moment ago and now I think Paul meant he was telling his readers to not let Jews judge them for what they eat (such as pork) or drink and to not let Jews judge them for not observing an OT biblical festival, or biblical ritual observance of a new moon (such as for a celebration/holiday), or a biblical sabbath observance, for note verses 11 and 17 of chapter 2. I don't think the WT prohibits JWs from observing the festivals/holidays of the Mosaic Law, though they say such observances are unnecessary for Christians. I don't recall the WT ever prohibiting JWs from obeying the OT festival laws ascribed to Jehovah God or abstaining from pork, just as they don't prohibit JW parents from having their newborn sons circumcised. A Jewish JW woman (who is very intelligent and spiritually minded) in the JW congregation I last attended told me she eats Kosher meat, and said it tastes better (or maybe she said it is healthier).
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Why Not Celebrate Christmas?
by Mum inso, jw's don't celebrate christmas or other holidays.
as bill cetnar once said, there are two reasons for everything: the reason they tell you, and the real reason.
they will tell you it's because christmas is "pagan" and can lead to all sorts of licentious conduct (like drinking too much macallan scotch?)..
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Disillusioned JW
WingCommander I always thought that verse at Colossians 2:16 pertained to celebration of the OT biblical holidays of the Law (which purportedly was mediated by Moses from God). I always thought that Paul had Torah keeping Jewish Christians (and maybe also gentile converts to some degree of Judaism who later also converted to Christianity) in mind in regards to that verse. I still hold to both of those interpretations of the verse.
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Why Not Celebrate Christmas?
by Mum inso, jw's don't celebrate christmas or other holidays.
as bill cetnar once said, there are two reasons for everything: the reason they tell you, and the real reason.
they will tell you it's because christmas is "pagan" and can lead to all sorts of licentious conduct (like drinking too much macallan scotch?)..
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Disillusioned JW
Hey Fisherman, I notice that you said something which I actually agree with, namely the following. "... wisdom of the world such as evolution and philosophy and critical thinking of the Bible is very persuasive ... and can convince someone that the Bible is not from God or challenge many JW teachings and once a person is in that frame of mind, he is out. Also ... putting the kingdom work on hold instead of trusting in God. Baptized JW dedicated his life to God and doesn’t own it to pursue [p]ersonal goals ..." That is what happened to me, but I think it is a good thing. Also what greatly influenced me is greater knowledge of the Bible by independently studying it using what I considered to me more logical means of interpretation (such as studying verses in their immediate context rather than jumping around to verses of other biblical books so much) and looking up the context of quotes by the WT of scientists (and others) even on areas not pertaining to biological evolution.
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The Evidence of Human Evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger
by Disillusioned JW indespite the wt's and young earth creationists' teachings against human evolution (namely macroevolution from non-humans) being a reality, the evidence of human evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger.. consider for example two science news articles and one other science article, each pertaining to the fossil that is nicknamed "little foot".
below are links to three science articles, listed in order of the articles from oldest to newest (except i don't see a date for one of the articles).
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2187639-exclusive-controversial-skeleton-may-be-a-new-species-of-early-human/.
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Disillusioned JW
I think that Homo floresiensis descended from Homo habilis, or at least from a species represented by at least one of the fossils which some claim is of Homo habilis. Homo floresiensis was definitely not our species of human and yet it was also definitely a species of human. The book by scientist Morwood says Homo floresiensis made stone tools, used fire, hunted Stegodon and Komodo dragons, and the front of its skull looked very human except that its forehead (of specimen LB1) is very short, and that the cranial capacity inside the skull was only 380 cc (for specimen LB1).
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Who raised Jesus from the dead?
by Blotty ini have seen arguments surrounding jesus' resurrection being proof of "the trinity" - now while in some cases it's a good argument the evidence for it remains very weak.
(bible quotes are from the nwt but other bibles are referenced, use whichever you please) this following version of it is a good example.. "the bible indicates that all [persons] of the trinity was involved in jesus’ resurrection.
galatians[1:1] says that the father raised jesus from the dead.
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Disillusioned JW
Sea Breeze made the following claim of which I wish to see scientific documentation for.
"Many cases have been documented of this happening in patients with:
1. Severe mental retardation when the patient has never spoken since birth.
2. Severe Alzheimers patients where the brain has derterioated to the point of showing little more than a functionaing cebral cortex to sustain heart beat, breathing etc."
What genuine science books or science journal articles document such? I would like to read such documentation. But even if I see and read documentation for such, I do not think it makes Sea Breeze's case that a spirit soul is doing the communication since such would seem to be ruled by the following words of Sea Breeze. "The physical brain with its neuro transmitters is simply the interface by which conscienceness can perceive and interact within a physical environment." Those words of Sea Breeze imply (to me at least) his theory means that the spirit soul would be unable to interface with the brain to cause the body speak out loud or to sing out loud when the brain is severely damaged to such a major extent.
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What really is UN doing with religions?
by Kosonen inoccult un forces seek to hijack religion for globalism.
https://thenewamerican.com/occult-un-forces-seek-to-hijack-religion-for-globalism/it does not look like religions dominate un but the other way around.
journalist alex newman gives a totally different picture about the real state of affairs.
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Disillusioned JW
It is true though that religion is a snare and in many cases a racket. I wish I had never become religious. I wish I had never been raised to be religious. For me it is far more satisfying and fulfilling to be nonreligious than to be religious. I wish my community (and my nation and my world) had far fewer religious people and far more nonreligious people than it does. I am sick and tired of hearing religious people telling me their wacko illogical religious ideas. I am also tired of wacko illogical religious ideas influencing governmental policies. But nearly everywhere I go (except where there are no people) there are religious people and from to time some of them tell me some of their nutty religious ideas. Sadly for me, in the department where I work (of about 80-100 workers) only one of my coworkers (besides myself) told me he/she is an atheist, and even that atheist said he is not sure there is no God (and thus he is also an agnostic). There are however a number of young people in my department who told me they are nonreligious. In my place of work I seem to be the lone voice for atheism and scientific naturalism. I wish I wasn't the lone person voicing such at work.
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What really is UN doing with religions?
by Kosonen inoccult un forces seek to hijack religion for globalism.
https://thenewamerican.com/occult-un-forces-seek-to-hijack-religion-for-globalism/it does not look like religions dominate un but the other way around.
journalist alex newman gives a totally different picture about the real state of affairs.
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Disillusioned JW
Kosonen what is your answer to the following questions. Do you believe there are occult forces within the UN? Do you think it is a bad thing for ones in the UN to try to persuade religions and religious leaders to promote fighting climate change? Do you think it is a bad thing for governments of the world to work to fight climate change? Do you think that working to do any of these things amounts to weaponizing religion? If those questions were asked to me my answer to all of them would be "no."
I see no evidence of the UN dominating religion. Instead I see the UN supporting freedom of worship around the world.